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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:53 pm 
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Having Sam Vimes anywhere near a chessboard is asking for trouble:

Thud wrote:
Chess in particular had always annoyed him. It was the dumb way the pawns went off and slaughtered their fellow pawns while the kings lounged about doing nothing that always got to him; if only the pawns united, maybe talked the rooks around, the whole board could’ve been a republic in a dozen moves.


Last edited by waffle on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: X Versus Y
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:44 pm 
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I've only read a handful of the Discworld books. I picked them up after Vimes had already been named Duke of (Ankh? or is it Morpork?) [Unless, he's always been the duke?] But he is by far my favorite character.

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 Post subject: Re: X Versus Y
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:22 pm 
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I got my mom (who is not a SFF reader or a nerd, though I think she would be very happy with a nerdy group of friends) into Terry Pratchett via the City Watch books. When she finished Thud! she pulled me aside and asked with genuine worry, "Is it okay to have a crush on a fictional character?" I explained that I had been madly in love with Sam Vimes from the minute he shows up in Guards, Guards! and we bonded over our tender-hearted love of him. We even ended up entering a crossword puzzle tournament together as Team Night Watch with "We {Heart} Vimes!" on our badges.

Yeah, this is totally derailing the thread, but for reals, Sam Vimes is my OTP.

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:52 am 
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Dodger77 wrote:
I picked them up after Vimes had already been named Duke of (Ankh? or is it Morpork?) [Unless, he's always been the duke?]


Duke of Ankh. He's always been anti-authoritarian - maintaining that stance after he becomes authority is described as 'practically zen'. He hasn't always been a Duke; he became a Duke after his actions in Jingo, which started by investigating the murder of a Klatchian diplomat and ended up with Vimes arresting the entire Klatchian army (on charges of conspiracy to cause an affray, lurking with intent, lurking within tent and carrying concealed weapons (his comment when that was objected to was "I can't see 'em")). To be fair, he arrested the Morporkian army at the same time.

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:33 pm 
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To break out of the Vimes fan club (of which I'm obviously a member, possibly treasurer), I submit a few of the reasons we love Harry Dresden, Wizard.

Harry, in attempting to recover the Shroud of Turin (yeah, he was pretty stunned as well), has been cornered by three fallen angels. Two are demonic visions of sheer horror, one is in formalwear with a trenchcoat over it. The Shroud is in a courier case with a remote detonator. While the fallen angels are distracted dealing with the thief who stole the Shroud, Harry steals the detonator and makes a play for time. In a loud voice, he says:

Harry wrote:
Hey Bogart! You and the wonder twins back off or the bedsheet gets it.


In another book, Harry bonds as only wizards can bond:

Carlos wrote:
Everyone else who lets me ride on their dinosaur calls me Carlos.


And Harry's older brother, introducing a short story where he narrates gives the best summation of the character:

Thomas wrote:
Harry's a wizard. A genuine, honest-to-goodness wizard. He's Gandalf on crack and an IV of Red Bull, with a big leather coat and a .44 revolver in his pocket. He'll spit in the eye of gods and demons alike if he thinks it needs to be done, and to hell with the consequences - and yet somehow my little brother manages to remain a decent human being.

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Night Watch is actually the most recent Discworld book I've read. It was cool, but it did kind of disappoint me by implying that Vimes is basically responsible for how awesome he is. I guess it could be that I've been I've been desensitized to the whole "go back in time and create your self" trope growing up with Back to the Future, and then seeing it again in Harry Potter [Granted, in a far more limited sense]. I do want to go back to the early city watch books at some point. I expect to love those.

I really don't know enough about Discworld though. I think the first one I read was The 5th Elephant my brother gave it to me 'cause he knows I've got a thing for Dwarves. (Incidentally, my brother is the person who got me into Sluggy!)

I've read..uh.. Maskerade(sp?) 'cause my brother left it at home during one of his visits. But I've heard that other people don't think it's very good? I enjoyed it. It is my first and only Granny Weatherwax book.

Any Anne McAffrey fans out there? I always liked Master Robinton and Menolly. (From the Pern series)

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:10 pm 
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If you understand Discworld (hah!) you would realise the Vimes was only able to make himself because John Keel had previously done so. The Discworld refers to the trousers of time where alternative possibilities split from the crotch down each leg of the trousers. In this case Keel trained Vimes in one leg and Vimes trained Vimes in the other. The interesting thing about this instance is that these trousers have a crotch at both ends.

Untelated: I was Old Nobby as well as 80% of the Unmentionables. I was also one of Snapcase's loyal generals and Lord Rust. I was repeatedly knocked unconsious by Vimes. It was a good play.

My Discworld crushes are Esk (I audibly squeed in I Shall Wear Midnight) and Lobsang Ludd (Thief of Time)

Oh and pretty much all of the Cheesemongers but this is very much due to the wonderful cast I worked with. Is it any wonder that the girl in London I lament about so much played Polly?

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:46 pm 
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I think Feet of Clay and Nightwatch were my favourite City Watch books. I loved the bits (can't remember which books anymore) where he booby-trapped his estate to deter would-be assassins, and then got disappointed when they took him off the kill list and started sending him trainees.

I was somewhat disappointed with the latest book (Snuff), where Vimes feels way overpowered. It was like he was blasting through the plot in God Mode.

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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:00 am 
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Dodger77 wrote:
Night Watch is actually the most recent Discworld book I've read. It was cool, but it did kind of disappoint me by implying that Vimes is basically responsible for how awesome he is. I guess it could be that I've been I've been desensitized to the whole "go back in time and create your self" trope growing up with Back to the Future, and then seeing it again in Harry Potter [Granted, in a far more limited sense]. I do want to go back to the early city watch books at some point. I expect to love those.


The first City Watch book is Guards, Guards!, which involves a plot wherein some not-quite-innocent citizens of Ankh-Morpork are being turned into what resembles small charcoal biscuits, and Captain Vimes of the Watch has to try to find a fifty-foot-long fire-breathing dragon who he has reason to believe can help him with his enquiries.

And the only other watchmen are Sergeant Colon, 'Nobby' Nobbs, and the new guy - a six-foot-tall human by the name of Carrot who thinks he's a dwarf and has memorised every law in the city.

Dodger77 wrote:
I really don't know enough about Discworld though. I think the first one I read was The 5th Elephant my brother gave it to me 'cause he knows I've got a thing for Dwarves. (Incidentally, my brother is the person who got me into Sluggy!)

I've read..uh.. Maskerade(sp?) 'cause my brother left it at home during one of his visits. But I've heard that other people don't think it's very good? I enjoyed it. It is my first and only Granny Weatherwax book.


Ooooh, Granny Weatherwax is good. She first appears in Equal Rites, while Magrat and Nanny first appear in Wyrd Sisters, to which I can't really do justice in a few short lines while avoiding spoilers. (Students of Macbeth may recognise some plot elements).

Dodger77 wrote:
Any Anne McAffrey fans out there? I always liked Master Robinton and Menolly. (From the Pern series)


DON'T LEAVE ME ALONE!
A cry in the night
Of anguish heart-striking,
Of soul-killing fright.

Live for my living,
Or else I must die,
DON'T LEAVE ME ALONE -
A world heard that cry


...

In short, yes. I liked Menolly's songs a lot (the above one I find particularly memorable, especially given what it references); Mastersmith Fandarel was also a great character ("It has been done. It can be done. It must be done.") - AIVAS was a bit of a surprise (and somewhat of a genre shift - though a very slight one, overall, really more an emphasis shift) but also a good character.

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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:09 am 
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While I couldn't get into much of the Dragonriders of Pern series, I did enjoy her Harper books.

I'm definitely with waffle in being a big fan of the Dresden Files (and Dresden himself in particular). To the point where I know a good amount of stuff that Jim Butcher's said (i.e Word of Jim) regarding the series that's not made it into the books. For instance, if Leanansidhe and Eldest Gruff went against Ferrovax (the dragon scene at Bianca's masquerade), and even got to choose the time, location, and had everything to their advantage and teamed up to the utmost, they'd be defeated as badly as Mike Tyson in his prime with a blind teenage girl in the ring. And Ferrovax won't enter the picture again until the big apocalyptic trilogy at the end.

Huzzah for random Dresden Files trivia.

Vimes is easily my favorite character in Discworld.

Another character I definitely enjoy is Kvothe from the Kingkiller Chronicles. You've got the odd dichotomy of Kote, his 'current' self, who is... broken, apparently magicless, living out his life as nothing more than a simple innkeeper, telling his life story. And you have Kvothe, his 'past' self, who is an extraordinarily gifted musician and student, a 'legend' in his own time. It's interesting to see how Kote portrays his past self Kvothe as someone who is at the same time so extremely talented but at the same time, in some ways, extremely stupid about things. And all throughout, you can't help but wonder how Kvothe became Kote - the readers can have their suspicions, but all in all we still don't know what brought him down to Kote's current level. Gah... I want the last book to be out already. If you haven't read that series (author is Patrick Rothfuss), I highly recommend it.

Other fictional characters I like...

Caine from Matthew Woodring Stover's series beginning with Heroes Die. If only because he's one of the most uncompromising anti-heroes I've ever seen. He's completely willing to watch the world burn to get what he wants, and is very high up on my list of fictional characters I'd never, ever want to cross unless I wanted to die a swift, painful death.

From the Wheel of Time, Matrim! Cauthon, because he's the only one of the main three that completely, utterly rejected being a hero, yet got pulled into everything anyway. The type that would protest that he's a hero while doing crazy, stupid heroic things.

Kaladin, of Sanderson's Stormlight Archive, is a very enjoyable character (actually, just in general that first book was very good and made me happy to see a new fantasy series I consider truly 'epic' started).


Last edited by Ruan on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:15 am 
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Steave wrote:
Oh and pretty much all of the Cheesemongers but this is very much due to the wonderful cast I worked with. Is it any wonder that the girl in London I lament about so much played Polly?

Sgt. Jack Jackrum! *swoons forever*

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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:37 am 
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Ruan wrote:
From the Wheel of Time, Matrix Cauthon, because he's the only one of the main three that completely, utterly rejected being a hero, yet got pulled into everything anyway. The type that would protest that he's a hero while doing crazy, stupid heroic things.


Matrix? Ha! Matrim.

I'm rather fond of Min, since she actually listens to people and doesn't fly off the handle or mope around or gratuitously hide crucial information from her friends, and basically acts like the grownup in the room even when she's surrounded by people several times her age. And she sniffs a lot less than others, and her eyes are hardly ever icy.

Thom fits that mold too.

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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:37 pm 
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CCC wrote:
Dodger77 wrote:
Any Anne McAffrey fans out there? I always liked Master Robinton and Menolly. (From the Pern series)


DON'T LEAVE ME ALONE!
A cry in the night
Of anguish heart-striking,
Of soul-killing fright.

Live for my living,
Or else I must die,
DON'T LEAVE ME ALONE -
A world heard that cry


...

In short, yes. I liked Menolly's songs a lot (the above one I find particularly memorable, especially given what it references); Mastersmith Fandarel was also a great character ("It has been done. It can be done. It must be done.") - AIVAS was a bit of a surprise (and somewhat of a genre shift - though a very slight one, overall, really more an emphasis shift) but also a good character.

Okay, confession time: I read Menolly's series out of order. She was my guide to this strange new world, and for that I will always be grateful. Robinton was a non-violent master of political intrigue, something I admire.

I did read the Dragonrider's trilogy in order though.

AIVAS was a shift in emphasis, but as you noted, not wholly unexpected.

I don't remember Mastersmith Fandarel as clearly, however.

Continuing with the Anne McAffrey discussion, I read one book of hers where a female humanoid fell in love with a sapient lion (Mrrshan, anyone?). The ending left wide room for a sequel, but I don't recall any other details. Some help in tracking this series down would be appreciated...

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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Dodger77 wrote:
I don't remember Mastersmith Fandarel as clearly, however.


Robinton's best friend? Big man, good with machinery? Tendency to get lost in a problem and lock himself in his workshop for weeks on end?

Dodger77 wrote:
Continuing with the Anne McAffrey discussion, I read one book of hers where a female humanoid fell in love with a sapient lion (Mrrshan, anyone?). The ending left wide room for a sequel, but I don't recall any other details. Some help in tracking this series down would be appreciated...


Could that be 'Decision at Doona', perhaps?

Another series I really enjoy is C.J. Cherryh's* Chanur series. The action is started up when an unidentified alien manages to sneak onto a Hani (basically, sapient lions) ship; an alien from an unknown, spacefaring species. If they can figure out whereabouts his home territory is, the potential profit for a small Hani trader ship is immense... but first they've got to try to keep this alien safe, and alive, among the several species in the Compact - when a high-ranking Kif captain will resort to murder to get him back. He says his species is called 'humanity'...

The best thing about the series is how the different alien societies are all so incredibly well realised. From the Hani, who live on seperate estates (each led by one very large male, who can traditionally be removed from his post by any other male in single combat; but though they're strong, you never trust the males with anything that requires actual application of the brain and certainly never with anything that requires keeping one's temper) - to the Kif, who aren't wired with anything like human emotions (but are wired to understand and maximize something called sfik, which is a lot like reputation - murder is not considered illegal on Kif worlds, and in fact the murder of a powerful leader is considered something to be bragged about, which leads to very different politics) - to the Stsho, who have three genders and two intermediate states (and can switch between them) but are psychologically incapable of violence (but they control the banking sector, so ifthey need violence done they simply pay someone else to do it) - right to the extreme of the Knnn, who are so alien that no-one has yet managed to explain the concept of the traffic lane to them (Knnn ships are considered 'navigation hazard' by oxygen-breathing species - especially as Knnn ships can maneuvre in ways that are just plain impossible for non-Knnn ships, implying higher technology or, in some cases, possibly just higher tolerence for gravity).

--------------

*Apparently her surname used to be 'Cherry', but her publisher thought that any female author called 'Cherry' would be dumped in the romance section, where sci-fi is unlikely to find many readers. So she added an 'h' on the end.

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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:00 pm 
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CCC wrote:
Dodger77 wrote:
I don't remember Mastersmith Fandarel as clearly, however.


Robinton's best friend? Big man, good with machinery? Tendency to get lost in a problem and lock himself in his workshop for weeks on end?

Dodger77 wrote:
Continuing with the Anne McAffrey discussion, I read one book of hers where a female humanoid fell in love with a sapient lion (Mrrshan, anyone?). The ending left wide room for a sequel, but I don't recall any other details. Some help in tracking this series down would be appreciated...


Could that be 'Decision at Doona', perhaps?


Ah ok. I remember Fandarel, now. I didn't recall his relationship with Robinton though, as they are both hall masters and therefore spend a lot of time at their own halls (At least, that's what they should be doing!)

It was not Decision at Doona however, thanks to the info you provided and a quick trip to Wikipedia I can now confirm that the novel I'm looking for was one of the four novels from the Freedom/Catteni tetralogy. I think it was Freedom's Landing but I'm not 100% sure.

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